Quodo in Every Episode discussion: "Profit and Lace"

[chacusha]

This week we're discussing... episode 6x23 "Profit and Lace"!

Episode synopsis: After implementing controversial feminist reforms on Ferenginar, Zek is deposed, and the only way to prevent Brunt from becoming the next Grand Nagus is to successfully convince a prominent FCA commissioner that Ferengi women are good for, and good at, business. When a heart attack makes Ishka unable to do this herself, Quark is forced to complete the job by pretending to be a Ferengi female named Lumba.

What The Boys are up to in this episode: This is a Quark-centric episode. Odo's one scene at the end is with Quark, where he cheers up Quark (who is in the process of stabilizing after his second sex change operation) by giving him a hug.

One screencap from this episode:


Transcript: http://chakoteya.net/DS9/547.htm

Quodo fics tagged with this episode: There are several borderline fics in the tag, but I don't think they count because Quodo isn't the main pairing or they are unfinished:
https://archiveofourown.org/works/18139256 (unfinished)
https://archiveofourown.org/works/38442025 (background Quodo)
https://archiveofourown.org/works/38244067 (implied Quodo)

Tell us:
- What did you think about this episode?
- Have you written a fic set during/after this episode?
- Have you read any of the fics linked above? Let us know if they fit! Do you know of any other fics set in or that build off this episode that weren't linked above?
- What do you see as the Quodo potential for this episode?

Anonymous comments are on, so feel free to chime in even if you don't have a Dreamwidth account! If you prefer, we are also available on Discord:
https://discord.gg/VaCnMYvKu6 (18+ proship Quodo Discord - there is a dedicated channel for this event)
https://discord.gg/Htz4crCdCt (general Quodo Discord)

Comments

[tribble_of_tarth]

(I need to start by saying Odo's face in the screencap is so so funny! XD)

To be completely honest, I have a bad habit of willfully forgetting some of Quark's more egregious flaws (such as his sexism), so I'm always kind of like ughhhhh whenever there's a scene/episode where I'm reminded of just how terrible he can be in this regard. This is obviously one of those episodes.

Random thoughts while watching:

SISKO: A Dominion invasion of Ferenginar?
ROM: Think of the terrible repercussions to the Alpha Quadrant!
WORF: I cannot think of any.

OMG, Worf. 😆💀

I love the scene where Quark, Rom, and Nog are running a little call-center for Zek.

I want some sort of fanmade TV spot for Slug-O-Cola now with the jingle they all sing lol. XD

Brunt's Grand Nagus suit is so amazing. I love it.

Re-watching the scene where Quark and Ishka have the argument that causes Ishka to need a new heart, I was struck by how even though Quark is yelling and saying a lot of terrible things, I don't feel his facial expressions match his tone and words. I think that even as he's saying all these terrible things, he knows he doesn't really mean them. Even in the moment, I think he knows he's just scared and angry and using this as an excuse to let off steam (the least healthy option when compared to Zek's tongo game and Ishka's tube grub eating), rather than the sort of argument where you say things in the heat of the moment (that at the time you think you mean) then regret later when you're calmer. I feel like this is somewhat supported later when he says, "Moogie and I argue all the time. It's our way of showing affection." It doesn't excuse Quark's behavior, but I feel like it gives the scene a bit of a different connotation for me.

The Hupyrians facing off in the background every time Brunt comes to goad Zek is so funny to me.

Watching Quark/Lumba roll their ankle in those high heels so many times hurts, ugh lol.

Everything that happens in Nilva's quarters is deeply uncomfortable, so thank the Blessed Exchequer for Jeffrey Combs because his delivery of, "I tell you - that is not a female!" and "But... whyyy??" is that scene's only saving grace, if you can say it has any.

The Quodo hug scene has some baggage with the whole "emotions raging out of control" thing, but I do think Odo asking, "Is there anything I can do?" is so so cute. It's really very genuine and sweet.

Odo patting Quark's head instead of his back is such a choice lol! I know that Odo was feeling awkward, but Quark's back was right there and he moves his hand up to pat his head instead. I don't know, it just seems more intimate than patting his back and I think about it whenever I see this scene.

I don't hate the episode as a whole as much I know some people (understandably) do, mostly because the base concept for this episode (Grand Nagus Zek is deposed for creating an amendment giving female Ferengi more rights, and Ishka, Quark, & Co. have to persuade other important Ferengi leaders as to how this will help Ferengi business and society overall.) is such a good idea. I like to think there's an alternate universe where they were able to bring Pel back for the episode to kick ass and hopefully have a wonderful scene with Ishka. (Look, I know this is the Quodo community, but can't you just see Ishka making a point to tell Quark how he effed up in letting Pel go?! It'd be so great.) I have had many thoughts about re-writing this episode with Pel myself, but if I'm being honest it'll probably never happen. (Maybe though?)

My main issue with the story as a whole is that this episode is supposed to be about proving to Ferengi society that women are as competent and business savvy as men are, but they instead have Quark, a man, save the day. I understand there are real life limitations on potentially bringing Pel back, but they could have introduced another woman Ferengi character to speak with Nilva. (And hopefully remove the scene in Nilva's quarters. That's one of those scenes I just have to think of as a product of its time and not dwell on it.)

Armin has spoken previously about his thoughts and feelings on this episode, but he touched on it a bit at the con I was at this weekend, so I thought I'd share. His main issue is that Quark didn't learn anything at the end of the episode, and that really bothers him. He didn't say much more, but he mentioned it every time "Profit and Lace" came up. He also said it was really difficult to walk in the high heels lol.

Quodo Potential:

In the process of thinking about how Odo could be inserted more into this episode, I feel like it might require Quark and Odo to discuss Ferengi gender politics. What would an Odo and Quark conversation about Ferengi gender politics even be like? Genuinely not sure lol. While Odo has expressed disdain for general Ferengi ruthlessness, I can't think of a time Odo and Quark have had any conversations about Ferengi gender inequality specifically? (Please correct me if I'm wrong.) I don't know, I'm just really curious about how a conversation like that would go.

Perhaps in an AU where Kira and Odo haven't gotten together, Odo would be jealous of Quark's admiration of Nilva's ring and how Quark is talking about Nilva at the end.

I love the idea of Odo realizing he might have more feelings about hugging Quark than he thought, and that being part of the discomfort that causes him to rush out when Zek and the others come in.

I'm also curious what the hug could have been like if they weren't in public. I feel like most of Odo's discomfort seems to come from being observed by the bar patrons. The last shot of the hug is an over the shoulder shot of Morn, with Odo noticing that Morn and a waiter are watching them and noticeably becoming more uncomfortable before disengaging from the hug. I feel like there is potential for the hug to have been longer/more Quodoy if it had only been the two of them.

Odo reads Oo-mox for Fun and Profit. Idk, I just have a pet headcanon that Odo gets really good at the tympanic tickle lol.

[chacusha]

Lol, I'm glad you like the screencap! Rene's Odo expressions are so good. XD

I feel like we picked out a lot of the same funny or charming parts of this episode!

Regarding Quark and Ishka's argument: Yeah, it's funny because the first time I watched this episode, I remember that scene being really tense and I wasn't surprised Ishka collapsed during it because I found it quite stressful and high-stakes. But rewatching it, it didn't really hit the same way at all and I felt there was something almost joking or "for show" about the way the two of them were arguing. But there were a lot of strange acting/delivery choices in this episode so I felt like I generally had a lot of trouble trying to figure out what was the intention of each scene.

Regarding Pel fix-it for this episode: Yeah, just in general, seeing Ishka and Pel interact would have been so good to have in DS9. I feel like Quark has a lot of mommy issues, and seeing the similarities between Pel and Ishka would have made that even more obvious. XD I haven't read it myself, but someone apparently wrote a Pel/Quark fix-it fic for this episode where she gets called in to replace Ishka: https://archiveofourown.org/works/31128467

Regarding Quark not learning anything in this episode: Yeah, that definitely bothers me. I wonder if the problems with the ending go even deeper than that, though. One thing I noticed about the ending is that Quark's initial "oh, forget what I said, that was wrong of me, let me make it up to you" reaction to Aluura raising the topic of oo-mox again makes sense given that he now knows what sexual harassment feels like... but what DOESN'T make sense is that, after it's clear that Aluura was actually interested, Quark still passes on oo-mox with her and it's treated as if he's trying to stay firm in his moral convictions, and then when he changes his mind, it's treated like a "oh Quark, you're incorrigible" sort of moment. But it doesn't make any sense??? Like, what in Quark's experiences as a woman would convince him that it's important to hold firm against the temptation of sleeping with someone who actually wants to sleep with him? Like, the episode treats Quark as backsliding here, but IS it backsliding to correctly pick up when someone is making a pass at you? I feel like the way the episode is written indicates a lack of understanding of the experience of sexual harassment and how it differs from just flirtation or expressing an interest in sex.

Anyway, thank you for sharing those tidbits on Armin's thoughts on "Profit and Lace"! The way the episode cancels out Quark's character growth at the end is definitely aggravating.

What would an Odo and Quark conversation about Ferengi gender politics even be like?
This is a good question! I'm trying to remember if Odo ever comments on Ferengi gender politics in canon. The closest I can think of right now is that in "Family Business," Odo is a bit scandalized by the hostile/disrespectful way Quark talks about his mother. And also, Quark briefly alludes to Ferengi law regarding women making profit in that scene, but Odo doesn't really react or express a negative opinion to it.

My guess is that Odo basically disapproves of sexism but also doesn't feel like it's his place to lecture anyone on this issue since he's neither a Ferengi nor a woman. Well, I'm guessing Odo has experienced life as a woman but in societies that are less sexist than Ferengi society or basically gender-egalitarian, and he (like most people outside Ferenginar) have met so few Ferengi women that he wouldn't feel informed enough to advocate for their interests. But his instincts would still point him in the direction of thinking Ferengi sexism is wrong.

So yeah, my guess is that Odo might make a sarcastic or disapproving comment here and there to try to push Quark a bit on it, but he wouldn't be interested in getting into a full debate, unless that was what Quark was looking for.

I feel like there is potential for the hug to have been longer/more Quodoy if it had only been the two of them.
I'm now imagining Quark inviting Odo over to his quarters for a private cuddling session. XD

Odo would definitely become a master at some of the oo-mox techniques, and accidentally invent half a dozen new ones. XD

Fun thoughts on this episode -- thank you for sharing them!

[chacusha]

- Aughh this episode! DX To be honest, I am not looking forward to rewatching this one. This opening scene for example: it's hard to rewatch this, not because it features Quark sexually harassing his employee (it's uncomfortable, but Quark does do this; this is very in line with his character*) but because I know how this plotline ends and it's terrible?? (Also, the actress's delivery is very flat/wooden here in a way that makes me just go "???" even more at what I'm supposed to think about this whole scene.)

* Okay but being kinda nitpicky about the timeline here, while Quark sexually harassing his dabo girls would have worked well in early seasons, it kind of fits awkwardly this late in the series so long after "Bar Association" and Quark's employees having cut their teeth on collectively standing up to Quark's abuses.

- The Ferengi population is 53.5% female, apparently. I also forgot about the Ferengi Bill of Opportunities -- didn't realize that's a thing that exists. /taking worldbuilding notes

- Also, kind of fascinating here that Ishka isn't bothered by Zek hitting on Leeta, but discourages him from pursuing her because she's broke. ?? Why would Zek want a rich wife? Why is that a thing? Do Ferengi not experience jealousy, or women don't, or Ishka doesn't? My partner tells me this comment works specifically in the context of Zek and Ishka's relationship -- she is teasing Zek for being interested in a partner (Ishka) who can make him rich and is telling him he won't get that from Leeta. I don't know, there are a lot of scenes and lines in this episode that baffle me, frankly.

- There are some legitimately funny scenes in this episode, like Rom catastrophizing about the situation on Ferenginar in the beginning and the scene when Rom, Quark, and Nog are calling the various FCA commissioners and you only get one side of the conversation (Quark: "That 'female' happens to be my mother!" -- lol)

- I like the little square-off Brunt's Hupyrian servant has with Zek's Hupyrian servant in the background here. I also like that we finally get to see Brunt in a new outfit here.

- I also like how Quark ends up taking his mother's side here despite his political leanings, just because he finds Brunt so insufferable as a grand nagus. XD Also, Quark being self-pitying again...

- Ishka: "Before he met me, Zek was a lonely, unhappy man." Quark: "But he was RICH!" This is so fascinating to me. Quark here clearly values being rich over being literally unhappy, which is wild, and reflects Quark's tragic flaw, which is that he believes so hard in the values of Ferengi society that the notion that you can be unhappy while "winning" in all the ways that supposedly matter just kind of goes over his head.

- Also fascinating to me that Quark omitted his argument with Ishka when telling people about what happened. "Moogie and I argue all the time -- it's our way of showing affection." -- Hm... (Quodo implications.)

- So, recently, I was trying to figure out the distance from Ferenginar to DS9/Bajor for a fic and I ended up settling on maybe two weeks at fairly high warp made the most sense given the size of the galaxy and guesses people have at the distance between Ferenginar and Bajor and how fast warp travel is. But I feel like this episode seems to imply it's, like, maybe a day, possibly less. Zek and Ishka show up shortly after Rom notices the Ferenginar blackout; they say the changes that destabilized Ferenginar were put into effect three days ago, and then they say sometime after arriving that they have three days before Brunt is confirmed; Quark, Rom, and Nog call all these people inviting them to DS9 and Brunt shows up shortly afterward, and Nilva arrives maybe a day later?

-- And while I'm here trying to puzzle out the timeline of this episode... Brunt: "Nilva will be arriving tonight." (Quark gets his sex change surgery.) Next scene, when Nog announces Nilva has just arrived: Quark: "But he's not supposed to arrive until tomorrow." ???

- There's apparently a deleted scene in the script for this episode featuring Bashir and Quark immediately post-surgery. It was cut, skipping to the scene where Quark is already dressed.

- I like Nilva's ankle-length coattails here. Also, just in general, I think Nilva's a great character -- I feel like he's a good depiction of the "old boys' network" and "established business tycoon" aspects of Ferengi society, which don't come up as often in canon. I also find his eccentricity interesting, where his sexism is somewhat put into check by his curiosity, his indifference to conforming to social mores, and sheer power of horny -- like, in some sense there's a limit to how much hatred/spite/resentment/etc. Nilva can hold toward women because at the end of the day, he just REALLY likes women, if you know what I mean, which is an interesting contrast to Brunt and Quark's particular forms of sexism as well as Zek's primarily business-/profit-motivated embrace of feminism. Also, he gets a very Some Like It Hot-esque moment at the end where it's apparent that the fact that Lumba used to be a man does not bother him in the slightest.

- Also, apparently in the script, rather than blowing a kiss to Brunt as he walks by, Quark strokes his lobe and has one last line ("What can I say? It was love at first sight.") to him, while "Brunt reacts to Quark's touch with a mixture of horror and pleasure."

- Live Morn reaction... Anyway, apparently, the Quodo scene here is ALSO a bit different in the script. In the script, Odo makes Morn turn around before he agrees to hug Quark, and is still hugging Quark when Zek makes his "I hope we're not interrupting anything" comment. In the episode, the order is altered, where Odo hugs Quark, breaks away from him when he sees Morn staring, and then Zek makes his comment when they're not hugging anymore.

- Omg, the script doesn't have the terrible ending scene with Aluura?? Why did they add it? ToT Okay, I do like the names of the various oo-mox acts, though.

- In general, this episode is quite painful/frustrating to watch because it could have been so good. A lot of the elements here could actually work -- the genderbending is good; the theme of Quark having to experience what it's like to navigate Ferengi society as a woman is good; the aspect where Quark is worried and stressed trying to pass as a woman while also needing to memorize notes and quietly having a gender panic and not having time to do any of that is perfectly fine and entertaining television on its own without needing to bring hormones or the weird judgmental jokes about Rom's femininity into the picture at all; even the dubcon parts of the plot and Nilva's character dovetails well into Ferengi worldbuilding. If you cleaned up the script so that the beats don't play out like the most stereotypical drag queen/Some Like It Hot-style plotline and actually delved into the experience of gender and gender performance, it could actually be a really good and interesting episode still with a lot of humor but also depth and character study. But oh well, this episode was very much the product of its time and we're not going to get a better version except in our imaginations. It is a big missed opportunity, though.


Quodo potential:

Oh man, I feel like there are a LOT of opportunities for Quodo in this episode:

- Very stereotypical, but any time you have a character who suddenly significantly changes the way they appear or the context they appear in, you have the chance for a feelings or attraction realization, e.g. an "oh no (s)he's hot" moment. I definitely think that could work for Quark and Odo here. While you get to see how Zek, Leeta, Rom, and Nog react to Quark's female appearance, you don't get to see Odo react, so you could definitely write it in!

- I mean, that hug scene -- you could just extend it and go more into how Quark and/or Odo feel about it.

- Also very stereotypical, but it would also be easy to add aspects where, when Odo finds out that Quark slept with Nilva and possibly caught feelings of some kind (from a one-night stand no less!), Odo finds he suddenly has a LOT of weird feelings of his own about that (shock, jealousy, protectiveness, etc.). Possibly an AU where he and Kira aren't together at this point. (But alternatively... having Odo and Kira be together here could actually make things interestingly messy!)

I haven't had the chance to read (or reread) the fics linked above, but will come back and add my evaluation when I have!

[chacusha]

Coming back with some thoughts on the fanworks:

Profit and Prams: This one would fit as it's set during "Profit and Lace" when Ishka and Zek have come to the station, but yeah, it's unfinished. I'm probably only going to include finished works on the masterlist.

Quark's Lobes Don't Grow That Way: This is entirely a Brunt/(f!)Quark (+ Rom) fic set at the end of this episode (quite funny!) with it being mentioned that Quark and Odo regularly have sex.

Lobeless Love: There's a short Quodo(ish?) scene at the end of this, but the main star of the show here is Bashir/(f!)Quark.

There's also an art piece tagged Quodo and this episode, but I didn't feel it was particularly themed around this episode aside from featuring a genderfluid Quark.

Anyway, I haven't been able to find any Quodo fics for this episode yet.